Monday, September 17, 2007

The Deal Making Thought Process

When I was playing my tournament on Saturday I had my good friend Matt (who is also a professional poker player) on the phone with me for the entire final table. When I mentioned suggesting a deal to the other players he pretty strongly advised me against it. Yesterday I got an e-mail from E.B. who is a former poker pro questioning my decision to make a deal also. We had a bit of a back and forth that I thought was worth posting which may address some similar questions that other people might be having as well.

Here's what E.B wrote:

First of all, congratulations… well done!

I just read your blog and I am wondering about the split. The chance of the short stack going belly-up pretty quick is obviously quite high. If you assume he is going to go broke (not a given, clearly), you’re risking $2500 to lock up $1300, and that is not even counting your slight chip advantage. Why do you think that was a good split for you?

I am not judging your decision; it was certainly yours to make. In fact, I am not even saying I think it is a mistake. Really I am just curious to understand your deductive process (which may have just been simply “I’ve had a rough run… ship the money and let’s not screw around”)

All in all, having to worry about whether you’re getting the best possible result out of your splits is kind of like having to pay a shitload in taxes: it isn’t a horrible problem to have. So keep it up; if you make $50K in September, we’ll come babysit so you guys can go out and celebrate. And in the meantime, enjoy having a 5 figure month when it’s halfway through!

EB

And then I replied with the following:

I think the biggest flaw with you're argument is the notion that the player with 200K is dead. He had over 6X the big blind (blinds of 15,000/30,000) which is plenty to maneuver with. If he doubles through me once we're both at 400K and the other player is at 600K. If the player who is roughly even with me (it was 590,000 to 600,000 which means I had him by 1/3 of one big blind or 1/5 of the smallest possible pot- effectively no advantage at all) gets me in just one hand I'm out. Even if no one doubles through me, if I go card dead for even a few hands or if my opponents pick up a strong run of cards everything could change. Three handed play is VERY volatile.

If you look at the precise numbers 3rd was $3,950, 2nd was $6,375, first was $10,125. and I got paid $7,670. In my mind I was risking $3,720 to win an additional $2,455 and needing to beat two opponents to do so.

If you would guess that if we were to run the tournament out 100 times and I could score 55 wins, 35 seconds and 10 thirds (a bit of a stretch that would require total domination) then I'd win $8,195 on average. If the ratio was 45/40/15 I'd average $7,699. If it dropped to 40/35/25 I'd be looking at $7,268. Clearly by taking the deal I wasn't giving up much equity even if I was WAY better than my opponents. If I was only slightly better than them I might have even been better off with the deal.

But the real issue comes down to locking up the money when things haven't been going well. If I played it out and didn't take the deal I'd be pissed with anything less than first. I'd feel like I threw away $1,300 if I finished in 2nd and I'd be spitting mad for the rest of the day if not the rest of the month with a 3rd place finish. If I was a very professional, logical player I know that I shouldn't factor that into the equation and should take any edge I can find, but in practice that's not how I operate.

Another thing to consider is bankroll. I don't have the bankroll to be playing something with as much fluctuation as 3 handed play with huge blinds for thousands of dollars even if I was certain I had a significant edge. Even though all the results are much better than I could have hoped for when the tournament started it still comes down to three handed play with a $6,000 difference between 1st and 3rd.

Now that I have all of that out of the way I can say that I was on the phone with Matt for the entire final table and he STRONGLY advised me to NOT make a deal. His logic, which was completely sound, is that there was no way in hell the other guys had as much experience playing 3 handed with large blinds as I do. I do feel like a little bit of a pussy, but when you factor in the emotional risk/reward to the monetary aspect, the deal makes even more sense.

Here's EB's reply to my reply:

I disagree with the possible outcomes you considered. I think 50%-55% first-place finishes would be a reasonable (but high-end of reasonable, obviously) expectation for you if you all three had the same stack. Another way I look at it is the same way I’d consider buying a used car: if the other guy loves the deal, it can’t be that great for me. Using that (admittedly simple) analysis, if you were the short stack, do you think you’d have been happier with this deal than you were as the big stack (or one of them)?

But that is all math (and somewhat questionable math at that). Obviously I understand, intellectually, that there is a difference (beyond the dollars) in the effect, on your state of mind, of coming off of a 3-way split that you took the lion’s share of and taking second or third place. However, I think it is hard to comprehend the magnitude of that effect, even for me, let alone for somebody who has never won or lost a month’s expenses in an hour.

Right now, I am sure you are playing your A-game, without much chance of being easily frustrated by short-term negative results, and you are probably once again enjoying playing (I’d imagine that after a week or two of getting your nuts slammed in the door it is almost like “Do I have to do this again?”.) I literally can’t even begin to calculate the dollar value of that change, so that being said, I definitely do understand your decision, and it DOES seem reasonable.

EB

I'll post my latest comments here. First of all I think this has been a helpful dialogue for me and I want to thank EB for getting it started. I have had my doubts about making this deal, the deal I made last week in the 1,870 player tournament, and many other deals in the past. Thinking through the details and possible outcomes a little more has given me more confidence that at the very least I didn't do something significantly wrong in this case.

I have to disagree strongly with the notion that I'd be more than 50% to win if we were all evenly stacked. Nominally in that case I'd be 33% to win. Only against rank novices or players who I'd played thousands of hands against could I expect to shift my chance of wining that much from what could be expected if it was random chance. In order for me to be 50% that means each of my opponents only has a 25% chance of beating me. Keep in mind that we're not playing in a situation where the blinds are small and there is plenty of time. The blinds and antes alone amounted to 1/28 of all the chips in play. In a spot like that luck takes on a much larger roll.

I would estimate that more than half of the time I make it to heads up in the scenario in quention my opponents would bust one another rather than me busting one of them since they're likely to play looser than me. If that's true I'd have a greater than normal chance of finishing in second, but a lesser chance of winning outright. If that happened I'd be severely out chipped going into heads up play which would put me at much less than 50% to win.

I do think the notion of "If the deal is good for them, it must be bad for me" is a fair point. But I think a more fair description is, we're all agreeing to a deal that is neutral so none of us faces a negative outcome.

Interestingly enough, while my vast experience playing 3 handed is a strong asset in the situation in question, it's also what makes me want to make deals. I've been screwed so many times when I was sure I had first place locked up, that I know first hand how quickly things can go sour.

My next WCOOP event ($215 limit hold 'em) is tomorrow (Tuesday). For every WCOOP event they have a "second chance" tournament with the same game and structure that starts about 3 hours after the initial tournament goes off. Usually the second chance tournament is $215 regardless of the buy in of the initial event. In the past I've had great success playing this size tournament when it's limit hold 'em. I'd give it a 50% chance that I'll play the second chance event which I will count as WCOOP related as far as people who have a piece of my action are concerned. I'll let you know what happens.

1 comment:

Anonymous said...

Lord! You and EB need to go have a beer and slap each other on the backs, or whatever it is guys do, after a catfight like that.

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